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Post by Jonathan Smith on Jan 26, 2005 19:19:53 GMT
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steve
New Member
Posts: 30
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Post by steve on Feb 3, 2005 19:00:37 GMT
Where are the catagories for pre 97 ?
My license says D1 buses 9-16 passengers not for hire or reward.
No weights for buses, the dvla site even mentions this.
Thats the basis i am driving my bus.
C used to refer to goods vehicles and if you ask the ministry of transport what ever a bus or motorhome is it is not a goods vehicle. I believe there is not underlying law to support this new mam thing they keep quoting they even add a disclaimer to that effect when you write to the dvla.
When taking things away they ususally granfather rights but seems to be no mention of this
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Post by Jonathan Smith on Feb 3, 2005 19:44:51 GMT
The DVLA have stated to me that the D1 licence relates to vehicles designed to carry people. A motorhome is not a mini bus or bus as it is a motorised caravan designed to live in rather than convey passengers.
They seem quite clear that if you take the seats out of a bus it becomes an HGV as the base vehicle is in effect a lorry.
The D1 category relates to a mini bus upto 16 seats. I think you would have a hard job convincing a court that a 37ft+ vehicle is a minibus.
I held a full PCV licence and could not use this to drive my conversion so it is unlikely they will allow you to drive on a minibus licence?
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steve
New Member
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Post by steve on Feb 3, 2005 20:46:13 GMT
This was information passed to me by someone in the same situation they contacted various depts.
<quote>
after a few calls got some more info, A minibus 16 seat can according
to DOT be any weight up to 18 Tonnes and the only requirement if its
bigger is a second rear axle !
Also according to DOT a motor-home is not a Goods Vehicle ie as far as
DOT are concerned 18 tonnes is OK on single rear axle. DOT are adamant
that a motor-home is NOT a goods vehicle by any definition they work to
!
Construction and Use dep't say as long as it as requisites for
acommodating passengers for camping it is a Motor caravan again as far
as they are concerned no weight limit.
Ministry are unconcerned with weight if its a motorhome its class 4
(car) MOT
Road tax over 7.5 tonnes is Private HGV as a taxation Class £165
Crown prosecution service abandoned the only case they ever went to
trial with thru lack of evidence, even tho they had signed statements
video, evidence and witnesses on the ground (Plod)
DVLA cannot quote any law which covers a motor-home, they keep quoting
good vehicle law, and their own leaflet which says it is not a
definitive according to law.
Overall I still do not believe they have a law in place with which they
could do you for driving a Large (huge heavy) Motor caravan.
<endquote>
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Post by Jonathan Smith on Feb 4, 2005 12:12:58 GMT
This means if the vehicle is more than 18 T it needs another axle.
There is no definition of a motorhome, as far as the legistlation is concerned these vehicle do not exist.
You can built a motorcaravan as big as you like, this does not relate to the driving licence categories.
Mot does not relate to driving licence category either. The MOT class relates to the number of seats, the varying price relates to the extra work involved in carrying out the test.
That is the maximum road tax for any private vehicle.
Who knows, I wouldnt want to be the first?
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steve
New Member
Posts: 30
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Post by steve on Feb 6, 2005 16:03:40 GMT
Well my license uses the exact wording
D1 Buses with between 9 & 16 passenger seats NOT used for hire or reward.
D Any Bus with more than 8 passengers used for hire or reward.
The word mini bus is not used. DVLA agree buses have no mam. These seem to have been somewhat downgraded with no grandfather rights.
The project bus being another oddity where only a car license is required.
We intend to leave bus seats, we will carry passengers but not for reward, we wont LIVE in it (i have a house), we may sleep overnight.
Looking into the C but its purely a paperwork exercise, I took the bus straight onto the M25, stopped to fuel several times. Did 350 miles in high winds & rain, motorway. Progressed to minor roads, night driving. Parked between 2 other deckers in the dark. A Pretty comprehensive 9hr test!
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Post by Jonathan Smith on Feb 6, 2005 16:23:00 GMT
If you have a D licence then you can drive your double decker on that.
I disagree with D holders having to get a C licence to drive a converted bus! But that is what I was told by DVLA??
We can argue about this all we want. The DVLA state one thing, everyone else points to loop holes and interpretation of legislation?
A bus does have a MAM, it must have a maximum weight, they just state it in seating capacity. That is why the seating and standing capacity must be posted on the vehicle.
In the real world, a bus carries people, so the driver is told the ULW of the vehicle as legally written in front of the near side back wheel. And the carrying capacity;
upper, lower and standing. The luggage compartments are taken into account and the overall maximum weight of the vehicle can be calculated.
For a goods vehicle, calculation can be done using weight as the weight of the cargo can be calculated before loading the vehicle.
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steve
New Member
Posts: 30
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Post by steve on Feb 6, 2005 17:27:49 GMT
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Post by Jonathan Smith on Feb 6, 2005 23:51:33 GMT
What is the maximum weight any rigid vehicle can be with only two axles? 18 Ton, above that it must have a third axleWhat is the largest vehicle that can be driven on a category C licence? The holder can drive any rigid vehicle with no restriction on weight (provided it is not carrying passengers under PCV regs)What is the largest vehicle that can be driven on a category D licence? The holder can drive any rigid vehicle with no restriction on weight (provided it is designed to carry passengers under PCV regs) The holder may also drive a purpose built bendi-bus articulated vehicle as it is considered to be one unit.The maximum design weight of a bus must be stated on the vehicle; The ULW must be written on the side of the vehicle on the near side in front of the back wheel arch. The carrying capacity must be stated on the vehicle, to include the seating capacity and standing capacity. On double decker vehicles the seating capacity is stated as upper and lower. Standing is not permitted in the upper deck as this would affect the stability of the vehicle. The seating capacity of a bus is governed by weight and not volume, 15 people equals 1 ton. The luggage space is calculated and factored in with the seating capacity, added to the ULW to determine the MAM. Category D licence holders are permitted to drive any size of bus which is approved by the UK government for use on our roads.If a PCV driver is caught with too many people on their vehicle they will be prosecuted in the same way as a HGV driver would be prosecuted for overloading their vehicle, or a car driver would be prosecuted for over loading their car. A category D1 licence allows the holder to drive a vehicle with upto 16 passengers. As stated before any rigid vehicle can be upto 18 ton on 2 axles, if it is over 18 ton it must have 3 axles. A category C1 licence allows the holder to drive a vehicle not designed to carry passengers under PCV regs upto 7.5 ton As stated category D vehicles are not restricted by MAM, however They are restricted by seating capacity; thus a vehicle with seating for 16 passengers allows a payload of just over 1 ton [15 people = 1 ton], if you add luggage you might get away with a payload of 2 tons. Now considering the fact that pre 1997 licences permitted drivers to drive; A car upto 3.5 ton A vehicle [goods vehicle] upto 7.5 ton A bus upto 16 seats [which actually equates to about 7 ton] It would take a very broad interpretation of the legislation to say that a bus which is designed to carry people rather than "goods" should need to weigh more than 7 ton, the company I drive for has a 17 seater transit which has a MAM of 6.9 ton. If a minibus was 18 ton it would have to be filled with 11 tons of something other than people. And I would argue that the extra weight would have to be cargo of some description which would make it a "goods vehicle". If you have a vehicle with 7 tons of people and 11 tons of cargo, I would say that was a dual purpose vehicle under the road traffic act, rather than a bus?
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Sammy
New Member
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Post by Sammy on Apr 1, 2005 9:09:28 GMT
It's a minefield, this is. I always drove mine assuming D1 was fine and had no weight limit, and I never met anyone who was given a hard time about it, but you always have that doubt.......
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Post by oldmankelv on Sept 14, 2006 13:21:55 GMT
While it would be extremely irresponsible to jump behind the wheel of such vehicles without training, while I was looking for a used Volvo B10M Auto, I came across this website: www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/vehicledrivers/whatyoucandriveandyourobligations/drivinglicensingrequirementsfortowingtrailers.htmfrom which I have copied the following: Subcategory D1: Passenger carrying vehicles 9 - 16 passenger seats Subcategory D1 vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM. There is no upper weight limit for subcategory D1 vehicles. From the horses mouth, as it were, the holder of a driving license with D1 entitlement can drive a coach with no upper weight limit as long as it has no more than 16 seats.
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Post by Jonathan Smith on Sept 26, 2006 11:39:30 GMT
While it would be extremely irresponsible to jump behind the wheel of such vehicles without training, while I was looking for a used Volvo B10M Auto, I came across this website: www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/vehicledrivers/whatyoucandriveandyourobligations/drivinglicensingrequirementsfortowingtrailers.htmfrom which I have copied the following: Subcategory D1: Passenger carrying vehicles 9 - 16 passenger seats Subcategory D1 vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM. There is no upper weight limit for subcategory D1 vehicles. From the horses mouth, as it were, the holder of a driving license with D1 entitlement can drive a coach with no upper weight limit as long as it has no more than 16 seats. Is it a bus or is it something else? When does a bus stop being a bus and become a motorhome?
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Post by nathanwhite on Dec 4, 2006 4:18:16 GMT
Hi I am new here and I was wondering if you could answer a few questions for me. I am looking to buy a Volvo B10M MARK 1 PLAXTON PARAMOUNT (1983) to convert and there are some things I am unsure of.
The coach currently has 57 seats in it so what needs to be done to it FIRSTLY so I can drive it home on a CAT C Licence (it is possible to remove the seats and change anything on the V5 Before collection).
SECONDLY what needs to de done to change it in to a Motor Home which can be driven on a CAT C Licence and MOT'd as a CAR.
I would also welcome any advice you have on the Road Tax and insurance situation before and after conversion.
Many thanks Nathan
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Post by Jonathan Smith on Dec 4, 2006 8:29:53 GMT
Hi I am new here and I was wondering if you could answer a few questions for me. I am looking to buy a Volvo B10M MARK 1 PLAXTON PARAMOUNT (1983) to convert and there are some things I am unsure of. The coach currently has 57 seats in it so what needs to be done to it FIRSTLY so I can drive it home on a CAT C Licence (it is possible to remove the seats and change anything on the V5 Before collection). SECONDLY what needs to de done to change it in to a Motor Home which can be driven on a CAT C Licence and MOT'd as a CAR. I would also welcome any advice you have on the Road Tax and insurance situation before and after conversion. Many thanks Nathan 1. Remove the seats, change the seating capacity on the V5 to the new number. 2. Once the seating capacity is reduced it becomes a C vehicle. With 9 seats it is MOT'd as a car. With 10 seats it is a private bus. 3. Conversion to a motorhome then change V5 to show motorcaravan, this can be driven on a C licence. Once registered as a motorcaravan tax would be private hgv same rate as a car. Try Adrian Flux for insurance.
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Post by nathanwhite on Dec 6, 2006 0:51:20 GMT
Many thanks for your help it has saved me a lot of time searching cheers Nathan
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