Youth charity needs advice

[dreamer]

Hi
Glad I found your site, I’m in need of some advice.
I am currently setting up a youth charity that aims to use confidence building sporting activities to help underprivileged youths around the U.K
One major part of this is purchasing and converting a bus/coach to transport and sleep small groups of teenagers to various sports locations.
We will need plenty of storage space for kit, sleeping quarters, kitchen, toilet/shower, of course the latest entertainment systems etc.

At this time I am putting together various proposals for funding. I have to make decisions right now as to bus/coach, possible makes, length/weight, number of passengers, and need to understand legal requirements, insurance etc. I need to become reasonably educated on these subjects very quickly to make the right decisions and secure the funding we require. I hope you can help or steer me to the authorities or reading material that can.
Thank you

Some questions….
1/ coach or bus – I prefer the shape and size of a bus, but for kit storage & long distance driving, economy & comfort it seems a coach would be best – any suggestions?
2/ Where can I find advice on types of bus/coach’s, pros & cons, what to avoid, which makes present which restrictions/problems. I need to fit a lot of stuff into a small space.
3/ where to buy?
4/ what licence the driver needs – transporting teenagers, number of passengers, weight etc
5/ MOT – I already read on your forum that its all about the seat numbers – does that include all seats i.e sofas
6/ Insurance – I’ve briefly read through previous threads and seating numbers, length and professional conversion etc seem to effect insurance. Would be in big trouble if I get a bus all kited up and find no one will insure me are there any obvious rules to adhere to?
7/ Any respected fitting companies to approach.
8/ Anything else you can think of that I’m not thinking of.

Thanks so much
Andrea
Director of KRESH

[Jonathan Smith]

Welcome to the site.

Your project differs from a motorhome conversion in that you will be using the vehicle for hire and reward so will have to adhere to different legistlation.

I would suggest contacting a band bus operator, the companies which provide sleeper coaches to rock stars.

Here are some from a seach engine:

www.atlantic-coast.com/neoplan/

www.aspenbussing.co.uk/

These people should be able to advise you and possible supply a used vehicle?

[dreamer]

O.K thanks for that.
Do you think it still counts as hire & reward if its services are being given free?

And where can i go for training to drive large vehicles -\
Thanks again

[Jonathan Smith]

The element of hire and reward is not as clear cut as it appears.

If a school teacher drives a minibus after school on a voluntary basis they are still deemed to have been paid to drive the minibus.


As you are intending using the vehicle to transport passengers, it would still be considered a bus if it has more than 8 passenger seats. As you plan to use it for young people you must consider the requirements for seat belts and forward facing seats.

You are likely to require a full vocational PCV licence, tachograph and operators licence.

[dreamer]

Thanks alot.
One last thing who do i go to to get all the answers i need to be legal?
cheers
D

[Jonathan Smith]

DVLA are the people to ask about driving licence requirements.

VOSA can tell you about classes of vehicle and maintenance requiremets ie MOT tests and safety standards.

[GeorgeTelford]

Yes thats right Jonathon, further its actually written in law in the Road Traffic acts that Marsham Construiction and use are final arbitors of a vehicles classification.

And Marsham say that a Motorhome is NOT weight restricted, ie like a minibus it can be any weight at all.

Do you need a special licance to drive a 25 Tonne minibus? the answer of course is no.

In the ONLY case ever to go to court which as you know was dropped, I spoke the the Crown Prosecution Service about why was the case dropped, they said lack of evidence, on further probing they admiteed that they still had the Police report's, Motorway camera evidence and also a signed "confession" of the chap driving a huge American motorhome on a standard car licence, the plot thickens....................

Heres the kicker, I asked what specific law was being broken to justify theprosecution and they could not answer.................

Beware DVLA DO lie, I have asked them and specifically had correspondence with their legal dept and they cannot back their claim that a motorhome is in a weight restricted category.

VOSA also agree for several reasons, specifically

MOT classification is the same as car, it is not on the list of vehicles precluded from having a Tachograph fitted, Plating not required.

[Jonathan Smith]

George, the question relates to a commercial operation carrying children.

It's not a motorhome.

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Jonathon

My bad, should have read it through better

then Mobile Project bus Could be the thing assuming less than 8 Passengers at a time (passenger numbers not clear from original post)

mobile project vehicles - having a maximum authorised mass exceeding 3.5 tonnes and constructed/adapted to carry not more than 8 persons in addition to the driver and carries principally goods or burden consisting of
i. play/educational equipment and articles required in connection with the use of such equipment

ii. articles required for the purposes of display or of an exhibition, and the primary purpose of which is used as a recreational, educational or instructional facility when stationary

Drivers must be aged 21 and have held a category B licence for at least 2 years. A mobile project vehicle may only be driven on behalf of a non-commercial body. However, drivers who passed their car test before 1 January 1997 are not subject to these conditions.

If its Up to 16 Passengers and a Minibus would be the answer

If you had entitlement to drive cars prior to 1 January 1997 you can drive a minibus provided you are 21 or over and the minibus has a maximum of 17 seats including the driver's seat and is not being used for hire or reward.

Note a minibus can be ANY weight up to 44 Tonnes with right number of axles, a minibus is a vehicle with 16 Passenger seats PS Motorcaravan seating does not count towards this number.

Beware if you intend to travel abroad, the british licencing hash up doesnt hold out in every case abroad, there are specific things relating to your age licence (ie when you got it) etc you would need to provide a lot more info for a definative answer

[GeorgeTelford]

PS Charaties as specifically not classed as comercial in the UK, abroad and we need thinking caps on.

The teacher case you quoted is different as a teacher is expected to do out of hours activities, if they drove the same bus voluntarily for scouts etc no problem.

[GeorgeTelford]

Jonathon, where is the Hire fee or reward? (remember that doing voluntary work IS NOT classed as for hire or reward) I know why school teacher would be barred, due to it being paid work and out of hours activities are expected within the pay package, but to drive for the scouts would be totally voluntary, I have checked this very carefully for 2 different people, hire or reward is a very precise (though slightly awkard to follow)

Little test for you, you turn to take a group of mates to a nightclub you all have a great night and at the end they all chip in a tenner for you being nominated driver a tidy little profit is this for hire or reward?

Same scenario, but nightclubs bore you, so this time you go home watch a film and then pick them all up afterwards, they all decide to chip in and give you a tenner each.

Are both or neither of these for hire or reward?

And where in the definition of project vehicle does it say that? Please quote the law that says the 8 passengers must be staff and not clients............

[Jonathan Smith]

Holders of a full category B (car) driving licence may drive any of the vehicles listed below:

a passenger carrying vehicle manufactured more than 30 years before the date when it is driven and not used for hire or reward or for the carriage of more than 8 passengers
a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats provided the following conditions are met:
i. the vehicle is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body but not for hire or reward
ii. the driver is aged 21 iii. the driver has held a car (category B) licence for at least 2 years
iv. the driver is providing the service on a voluntary basis
v. the minibus maximum weight is not more than 3.5 tonnes or 4.25 tonnes including any specialist equipment for the carriage of disabled passengers
vi. if the driver is aged 70 or over, is able to meet the health standards for driving a D1 vehicle

When driving a minibus under these conditions you may not receive any payment or consideration for doing so other than out of pocket expenses

[GeorgeTelford]

Jonathon

Several points;

1. you are trying to avoid admitting your error, there is NO restriction on the status of passenger carried as you tried to claim.
2. you know that the list in reply 13 is neither complete nor accurate, I and many thousands of others can drive a minibus up to 44 tonnes as long as it as the requisit number of axles
3. that last bold statement is NOT an accurate legal representation of the meaningof " for hire or reward", I am guessing it is a BS statement from DVLA
4. Quote "Very few organisations use B licence holders for such vehicles, most if not all of these organisations ensure that the drivers have full C training and pass a C test." endquote, this statement is meaningless waffle.


This next link will show you just how far out of your depth you are on licencing law, check some of your previous statements against this from DVLA

www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=32146&Rendition=Web

Quote

"Hire or reward encompasses any payment in cash or kind by (or on behalf of) passengers which gives them a right to be carried."

I have highlighted just one crucial point there.

Just the fact of being given money does NOT make it for hire or reward its far more complex than that............

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Jonathon

1. In court its the letter of the law, you ARE WRONG it is that simple.

2. So why post it as though it proves your point, when the reality is that it doesnt

3. No it is not, Hire or reward is defined under legal and taxation law and the simplified statements you are putting forward are NOT accurate.

4. exactly waffle it doesnt mean a thing legally

To answer your other points

Holding all those licenses obviously does not make you clued up on the law, as your numerous mistakes here show, if anyone wants a driver or to learn to drive yo da man, but giving legal advice is obviously not something you are suited to at all

DVLA do not make the law and their views are not legally binding, so why quote their inaccuyrate views? a simple scan of the law shows that their views are wrong.

Here is something we agree on, some untrained muppets being able to drive huge vehicles is dangerous and totally wrong on safety grounds, BUT it does not mean you are right that it is against the law.

I totally agree that certain people should not be able to drive large vehicles simply due to passing a car test, its patently ridiculous.

If you were to be honest and say well yes you can drive this 35 Tonne vehicle Motorhome/minibus or whatever on a car license, but I really think it would be wise to learn to handle a vehicle that size properly.

What I dont like is that you knowingly lie to people, it may be in everyones best interest that they get training, but be honest first.

[GeorgeTelford]

PS DVLA didnt remove diddly the Road traffic act was changed to bring us in line with Europe
and if you were to ring up they would try to mislead you (by ommision) about vehicle licencing, they also lie directly ie telling people that motorhomes are weight limited licensing wise even pre 98, this is strictly against their remit, vehicle classification is by Construction and Use Marsham and this is stated clearly in law.