George Goes To The Scrappies !!

[jimmy193]

NO PANIC ;D - I took George to the scrappies on Wednesday to get him on the weighbridge.
Having had various communications with DVLA about licence requirements to drive him (and I have been doing so since September), I decided I needed to know how heavy he was.
When I bought him he had 6128KG painted on the belly locker door, I assume this was the tare weight. The details on the new V5C showed body type "Motor Caravan" taxation class "Private HGV" and MAM as 10180KG GROSS - confused ?, I was and a little bit worried.
The outcome of the various emails from DVLA was that George could be driven on a C1 class licence which meant he could not weigh more than 7500KG or 7.5Ton hence the trip to the scrapyard.
I waited with baited breath while the scales settled and then the operator wrote down the result - 7680KG ! Oooops, that's it, George is now on a strict diet.
I have identified a few areas where I can trim down the 28 stone excess - get all the tools and extra gas bottles out of the boot - reduce the size of the water tank (from 100 gallons down to 40 litres) - same for the waste tank. One or two other little things and we are well under the limit and okay to add a few extra essentials while we are at it (a couple of extra bottles of gin, more tonic and the odd case of McEwans).
Ah well, all's well that ends well
Oh, and by the way, don't get excited if you see George making a guest appearance on ebay - I intend to find out how much he is worth now that most of the conversion is complete. I can't think of another way to find out his worth other than what Joe Public is willing to pay. It only costs a couple of quid for the advert and I doubt anyone will exceed the reserve I put on him.
Happy motoring all,
Regards,
Jim

[Jonathan Smith]

Why not just go for the HGV test? That way you don't need to worry about George's weight.

I sat my car test in 1997 only a few months after they changed the law, my car licence was only good upto 3.5t

Even with my bus licence I could not drive my own bus post conversion as it is 8.7t empty

The laugh was I could drive any bus provided it did not have a clutch pedal. So that ruled out a 16 seat transit minibus. I could drive a double decker bus but could not drive a smaller 7.5t truck yet my mate who passed his test in 1996 could drive a 7.5t truck and a 16 seat transit minibus

Ironically I sat the HGV 2 and my licence came back with full manual bus, minibus and 7.5t as well ;D

I am considering the HGV 1 cos that would add trailers to every category. I cannot pull a caravan with my licence at the moment if it is over 3/4 of a ton, yet I can drive any size of rigid vehicle permissible on the road.

[jimmy193]

Been round the block a few times here Jonathan, and the basic answer is I just can't be bothered.

I had HGV 1 up to June 1997 when I thought I would not require it any longer - was leaving the Army for good and wouldn't be driving Crusaders or big rigs for a living so renewal seemed a waste.

I got the HGV through a loophole in the Army regs (pre 1987) which entitled a Warrant Officer to hold a licence equivelant to drive any vehicle that the parent unit may be required to use for operational purposes. We had heavy armoured vehicles and as such had occasion to use Crusaders (modern Antars) to move them from A - B without using valuable track-mileage. Took every opportunity to use the licence whenever I could

I don't think the weight will be an issue when George has his water tanks revamped (working on that now) but I have been toying with the idea of fitting a tow-hook to pull my trailer which would be permanantly loaded with all the on-tour extras (not exceeding 750KG). That plus the 7500KG gives me an all-up weight of 8250KG which is 570KG more than his weight on Wednesday at the scrappies.

Once again - All's well that ends well. You never know I might just say bu$*#@r it and go for HGV again. ;D

All the best,
Jim

[Jonathan Smith]

I did my HGV 2 with livingston driver training, i just did a couple of hours practice on the day of the test then had the test after lunch. Only cost me a couple of hundred squid.

Obviously I "HAD" to pass cos dragon bus is definately over 3.5t but I really wanted to be able to drive a minibus How annoying do you think it is to hold a bleedin bus licence but not be able to drive a minibus

;D

Anyway now I can drive coaches as well so spent last summer touring Scotland

[jimmy193]

It's not the cost of the test that is the problem, it's the bleeding red-tape syndrome that surrounds Brit rules for driving vehicles that gets up my nose. ;D

After a few lengthy emails to DVLA they admitted that the rules were "unclear" but that my licence entitled me to drive George provided he did not exceed 7500KG. They would not advise either way on re-MAMing from 10180KG GROSS down to 7500KG.

Confused ? - you bet!

Regards,
Jim

[Jonathan Smith]

I've been trawling through the road traffic acts to find the actual "law" relating to driving vehicles.

There is a debate ongoing about wether you need a "goods vehicle" licence to drive a "private" vehicle.

The "hire and reward" element.

What is the difference between a rigid truck and a rigid bus? They could have the same chassis, engine, gear box, MAM and external dimensions.

A bus driver holding a D licence cannot drive this vehicle unless it has seats.

A truck driver holding a C licence cannot drive this vehicle if it does have seats.

In some countries if you pass a truck licence you can drive a bus.

The law relating to PSV licences in the UK require similar police checks for bus drivers as taxi drivers to check you are not a convicted sex offender etc etc carrying joe public.

The sensible approach would be to have a combined test, the theory element covering both C and D and the practical test being done in either type of vehicle.

The practical driving test for the PSV is basically the same as the HGV the only main difference is you are asked to demonstrate stopping at bus stops ;D

Most HGV drivers know how to stop at bus stops so there should be no problem there then {runs and hides }

[Bruce Henderson]

__. I feel for all your red tape. In the US, if a bus or coach conversion is listed as a "motorhome" on the official "Certificate of Title" document (like your V-5) in the State of it's ownership*, it does not require any license other than a standard car driver's license to drive. It seems to me that this is a governmental luxury that we're not likely to enjoy for long -- the beaurocrats would *love* to jump on that one.
__. In my state of North Carolina, for vehicles over 3 wheels, there are only two license categories, "DL" and "CDL". The "driver's license" is for passenger cars, light truck and vans (used privately), motorhomes and a few other specialty classes. The "commercial driver's license" is for light vehicles being driven for hire and large vehicles (over about 7.5 tons) whether it's driven for hire or not. (There are a few special categories such as driving nuclear waste that require a specific rating.)
__. I'm allowed to drive my Daimler Fleetline on a passenger car license. Of course, as a motorhome, it cannot be used for hire. If anyone uses a motorhome (like a Winnebago) hired to a, say, rock band as a tour vehicles and provides the driver, the driver must have a CDL. If the band hires the motorhome and one of the band members drives it, he can drive it on a passenger car license. (Any driver of a vehicle over 40 feet in length must have a CDL, so there are some limits.)
__. Kinda wierd and "cowboy" but it makes sense to require "hire to the public" as the criteria for licensing. And thank goodness for less government red tape, whereever you find it.
Bruce Henderson, North Carolina, USA

[jimmy193]

Jee-zus Jonathan - it would make some folk go right back to towing a c'van behind the car

There again - if it was plain sailing with the gov't and DVLA it wouldn't be half the fun....and who wants to tow when you can travel in style in your palace on wheels

Getting closer to changing the MAM now ;D

Bruce,
Hope you will be letting us see some pics of your conversion or telling us where your web page is if you are starting / got one.

Have a good day all
Regards,
Jim

[Jonathan Smith]

;D

I can't tow a caravan remember I don't have the right licence ;D ;D ;D ;D

[jimmy193]

So we are back to square 1 Jonathan - that's exactly what I mean by all this red tape, you can drive monsters (rigid) on your licence but you can't tow a poxy little caravan.

It must be heaven over there in North Carolina Bruce, very few restrictions and cheap fuel too. Reminds me of a song:
"Nothing could be finer than to be in Carolina in the mooooorning"
Regards,
Jim

[delboy1]

i passed my car test in 05/1982 and used to have an old green style licence before the pink one.
so can i drive my plaxton supreme motorhome on my car licence or not?

[Jonathan]

Guest-delboy1 said:

i passed my car test in 05/1982 and used to have an old green style licence before the pink one.
so can i drive my plaxton supreme motorhome on my car licence or not?

Your licence should have C1 on it which allows you to drive upto 7.5t if your motorhome weighs less than 7.5t fully loaded [registered weight see your V5] then you can drive it on the C1 licence.

If the V5 has a number greater than 7500kg you either need to reduce the weight of the vehicle or obtain a category C licence (hgv)

[jimmy193]

Hi Delboy,

Welcome aboard

Oh boy - here we go ..........

I assume you are in possession of a category C1E licence - that should be the case as you passed your test before 1997.

That licence would entitle you to drive a rigid vehicle up to 7500KG - roughly 7.5 ton plus tow a trailer up to a weight of 0.75 ton (this should be indicated by note 7 to the right of C1E on your licence).

Your Plaxton Supreme should be roughly the same tare weight (stripped-out) as mine / perhaps a little heavier, and providing it does not exceed 7500KG when you are finished you are legal to drive it.

You also have to check the revenue weight on your V5C (registration document) - it will probably be in the region of 10000+KG - if so you are in the same boat as me. The DVLA call this the MAM (Maximum Admissable Weight) - what would be the maximum all-up weight allowed as a bus including passengers and luggage.

I have weighed my Bedford (which is now finished) and it topped out at 7680KG which was 130KG or 28 stone overweight. To make me legal, I am in the process of reducing the fresh cold and hot water tanks, the waste tanks, and emptying out the extra gas bottles and tools and other bits (I'm sure you know how it is) from the boot. This should lessen the load by around 4 big blokes or 60 stone - which makes the weight okay.

I will then get it weighed at my local scrappies (just to be sure) before I take it to a public weighbridge to get a certified weight docket which I will send to DVLA together with a form from the Post Office and £19.00 to change the revenue weight to 7500KG. I will remind them at the same time that it only has 5 seats as declared when I re-registered it, and not the 48 they seem to think can be fitted in a "Motorhome".

Still with me Del ??

To summarise:
You should have " C1E" on your licence
The weight of the bus needs to be 7500KG or less
You need a certificate from a recognised weighbridge
You need to change the Revenue Weight (MAM)
Easy ?

If you think all this is complicated you should read the email hard copies I have from DVLA on the subject.

Of course, you can always do a HGV or PCV course and get your licence upgraded as Jonathan mentioned earlier.

Looking forward to seeing the finished job on your Plaxton - mine is on the site below.

Regards,
Jim
www.freewebs.com/georgethebus

[delboy]

hi jim

all the weights etc that you mention are to do with goods vehicles.

Class C1 on a licence is for: Goods vehicles exceeding 3.5 tonnes but not more than 7.5 tonnes

Class D on a licence is for : Large passenger carrying vehicles (with more than 8 seats plus driver)

A motorhome registered as a motorcaravan as DVLA like it worded on the log book is NOT a goods vehicle so doesnt come under the Class C1 restrictions, and as its no longer a PSV it doesnt come under Class D

Motorhomes are not weight restricted and are classed as PLG, even having same MOT as a car. If on one hand its classed as PLG then it cant also be Classed as a Goods vehicle at the same time

have you heard of anyone being prosecuted for driving a RV or Motohome on the wrong licence, as from what i have read elsewere DVLA like to think they are a law unto themselves, and interperate the actual law to the way they think it should be.

Have you asked the police what licence you need as they would be the ones who would be prosecuting you for maybe having the wrong licence to drive a MOTORHOME.

The same goes for getting insurance dont tell them it a converted bus/coach, its not its a 'motorhome'.
If you buy a Hymer you would call it a motorhome or a conversion?

But its still a conversion on a truck chassis that has been brought from a major motor manufacturer, then had a body built on it by a motorhome company.
Insurance companies dont like the words 'conversion' or 'custom' as they see boyracers and claims. All you need to say is its a motorhome on a (bedford/ford/ iveco etc) chassis.

[jimmy193]

Hi Delboy,

The reason I mentioned the C1E class is because you should have it on your licence and it does give you an extra 750KG (towed) to play with if you are struggling to keep the weight of the coach down.

I am assuming you have not been to your local DVLA to get the V5 amended and registered as a Motor Caravan yet because that is when the fun begins.

When I did mine in August they insisted I return the following day with "George" to make sure it was indeed a motorhome and not able to be used as a goods (HGV) vehicle - if they had ever tried conveting a coach they would know how hard it is to get the gear in, never mind using it as a truck!! Anyway, George duly passed inspection, I paid the £165.00 and was issued with a temporary V5 duly amended to "Motorhome" and bearing the official DVLA stamp. They also stated that as a motorhome the weight was not an issue due the licence I held. Yahooo - 2 days and we are off on the first world tour of Scotland.

Imagine the surprise when I got back to find the new V5C stating the original MAM (10+ton). Motor Caravan, and Private HGV. Apart from emailing DVLA (driver) about licence requirements, all I have done is keep the weight down below 7.5T. However, last night I emailed DVLA (Vehicles) in an effort to get the definitive answer to this minefield of a problem. I will post the reply as soon as I receive it - don't hold your breath

I have a friend (cop) in the local nick - he said they tend not to delve any further than docs check when dealing with motor caravans because of the different interpretations on DVLA rulings. Personally I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted for driving a motorhome on the wrong licence, but knowing my luck I will be the first if it should happen ;D

Watch this space ........

Regards,
Jim